[Groop]OT-Very very OT.

Groosagi16@cs.com Groosagi16@cs.com
Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:25:57 EST


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In a message dated 12/11/2002 10:42:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
grossfam@olywa.net writes:


> The point I tried to make is that we are never as far away from the kind of 
> barbarism that took place in Nigeria as we like to think we are.   


---------->I know I edited you a bit.  The examples you cited were on point.  
I agree with you on quite a bit here.  We have a lot of shameful incidents in 
our past, but on the comment I have to disagree.  We are never as far away 
from out own shameful events (their type, magnitude or causations), but this 
exact type of barbarism is something we have never had.  We have had riots.  
We have had riots lashing out a both the rioters as well as random 
unassociated actors.  We have had deaths from the same.  But never something 
quite like this.  I make the exception, but agree with you on your main point.

And it is more important for us to be on guard about what goes on within our 
own 
> borders than to point fingers at what goes on within others.  The latter may 
> be important in many, many circumstances, it's just that the former is MORE 
> important.   


---------------->I'm certainly on board with this.  I was just trying to get 
a little further clarification from you, a specific noting that what you were 
saying was not isolationism.  (I did not think that was your way of thinking, 
but went a little coy just in case it was.  Sorry if I annoyed, offended, or 
otherwise cause confusion or misundestanding.  I think it is a difficult 
balance though.  How in order does your house have to be before you take 
exception to the flagrantly out of control house?  How are any of the 
elements in the above metaphor defined? It is a very tricky situation.  I 
think Americans also need to be aware of this.  And then further, while I 
don't want us to do gung-ho on military courses, neither do I want us to sit 
and let a known forthcoming bad happen.  We gots a lot to think about. 

especially in these days where the ignorant are always looking for an excuse 
to hate 
> someone and the powerful are always looking for a way to exploit the 
> ignorant to achieve their ends. 


------------------->This is the basic ugly structure that apparent human 
nature has put upon all of us, in all situations.  I here here (or is it hear 
hear) eh, I dunno, let me start over.  I hear here your especially.  In this 
specific situation you have to be wary of Bush (never thought I'd say that, 
and I am not speaking politicaly in this parenthetical).  I have not trusted 
him since the precise first moment I came to know of his existence.  However, 
I have also not trusted Saddam for far longer.  I don't think we are looking 
at trying to argue an "ends justifying the means" situation here, but rather, 
a "motives not unjustifying the ends".  In Nigeria we have nothing to do 
other than say it is wrong, and potentially modifying our business dealings 
with the country.  I know your original comments were aimed at the Nigerian 
issues discussed, and so I apologize to the extent their inclusion in the 
Iraq discussion takes them out of context.  Please correct as needed.  
Something needed to be done about Saddam and his terrorism since long before 
Jr. had real thought one of ever being in arena to have such in his purview.  
I don't care if Jr. wants to settle up scores for Sr.  I don't care if Jr. 
wants to go in order to free up oil.  My concern is that this known terrorist 
loose his base of conducting such conduct.  Caveat, I can see situations 
where the motive could lead to overbroad ends.  Rather than opposing the 
potential conflict in that arena in the fashion has been done to this point, 
I think a more effective and useful method would be to make sure that 
structures, limitations and paradigms are in place securing Bush.  As it 
stands, those who consider the negative of war are not being heard, and thus 
the offensive mounting looms with that much more free reaign.  

Do I make any sense to you with any of this?  

Ari

 -Gary G. 
> 
> 
> >> Garry concludes: 
>> 
>> So while the combination of stupidity and intolerance that lead to 200 
>> deaths in Nigeria was horrible and should be condemned, Americans need to 
>> spend more energy doing everything they can to keep their own house in 
>> order 
>> and not let our own intolerance, misunderstanding, and fear lead us to 
>> doing 
>> things as a nation that our children and grand children will be ashamed 
>> of. 
>> 
>> -------------->Isolationism?  I agree we have a lot of work to do in our 
>> own country, but I disagree that means we should close our eyes to the 
>> rest of the world.  We have a lot of bad going on in our country, no 
>> doubt, but we ain't got nothing like this.   
>> 
>> 
> 



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 12/11/2002 10:42:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, grossfam@olywa.net writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The point I tried to make is that we are never as far away from the kind of barbarism that took place in Nigeria as we like to think we are. &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>----------&gt;I know I edited you a bit. &nbsp;The examples you cited were on point. &nbsp;I agree with you on quite a bit here. &nbsp;We have a lot of shameful incidents in our past, but on the comment I have to disagree. &nbsp;We are never as far away from out own shameful events (their type, magnitude or causations), but this exact type of barbarism is something we have never had. &nbsp;We have had riots. &nbsp;We have had riots lashing out a both the rioters as well as random unassociated actors. &nbsp;We have had deaths from the same. &nbsp;But never something quite like this. &nbsp;I make the exception, but agree with you on your main point.
<BR>
<BR>And it is more important for us to be on guard about what goes on within our own </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">borders than to point fingers at what goes on within others. &nbsp;The latter may be important in many, many circumstances, it's just that the former is MORE important. &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>----------------&gt;I'm certainly on board with this. &nbsp;I was just trying to get a little further clarification from you, a specific noting that what you were saying was not isolationism. &nbsp;(I did not think that was your way of thinking, but went a little coy just in case it was. &nbsp;Sorry if I annoyed, offended, or otherwise cause confusion or misundestanding. &nbsp;I think it is a difficult balance though. &nbsp;How in order does your house have to be before you take exception to the flagrantly out of control house? &nbsp;How are any of the elements in the above metaphor defined? It is a very tricky situation. &nbsp;I think Americans also need to be aware of this. &nbsp;And then further, while I don't want us to do gung-ho on military courses, neither do I want us to sit and let a known forthcoming bad happen. &nbsp;We gots a lot to think about. 
<BR>
<BR>especially in these days where the ignorant are always looking for an excuse to hate </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">someone and the powerful are always looking for a way to exploit the ignorant to achieve their ends. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>-------------------&gt;This is the basic ugly structure that apparent human nature has put upon all of us, in all situations. &nbsp;I here here (or is it hear hear) eh, I dunno, let me start over. &nbsp;I hear here your especially. &nbsp;In this specific situation you have to be wary of Bush (never thought I'd say that, and I am not speaking politicaly in this parenthetical). &nbsp;I have not trusted him since the precise first moment I came to know of his existence. &nbsp;However, I have also not trusted Saddam for far longer. &nbsp;I don't think we are looking at trying to argue an "ends justifying the means" situation here, but rather, a "motives not unjustifying the ends". &nbsp;In Nigeria we have nothing to do other than say it is wrong, and potentially modifying our business dealings with the country. &nbsp;I know your original comments were aimed at the Nigerian issues discussed, and so I apologize to the extent their inclusion in the Iraq discussion takes them out
  of context. &nbsp;Please correct as needed. &nbsp;Something needed to be done about Saddam and his terrorism since long before Jr. had real thought one of ever being in arena to have such in his purview. &nbsp;I don't care if Jr. wants to settle up scores for Sr. &nbsp;I don't care if Jr. wants to go in order to free up oil. &nbsp;My concern is that this known terrorist loose his base of conducting such conduct. &nbsp;Caveat, I can see situations where the motive could lead to overbroad ends. &nbsp;Rather than opposing the potential conflict in that arena in the fashion has been done to this point, I think a more effective and useful method would be to make sure that structures, limitations and paradigms are in place securing Bush. &nbsp;As it stands, those who consider the negative of war are not being heard, and thus the offensive mounting looms with that much more free reaign. &nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>Do I make any sense to you with any of this? &nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>Ari
<BR>
<BR> -Gary G. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Garry concludes: 
<BR>
<BR>So while the combination of stupidity and intolerance that lead to 200 
<BR>deaths in Nigeria was horrible and should be condemned, Americans need to 
<BR>spend more energy doing everything they can to keep their own house in order 
<BR>and not let our own intolerance, misunderstanding, and fear lead us to doing 
<BR>things as a nation that our children and grand children will be ashamed of. 
<BR>
<BR>--------------&gt;Isolationism? &nbsp;I agree we have a lot of work to do in our own country, but I disagree that means we should close our eyes to the rest of the world. &nbsp;We have a lot of bad going on in our country, no doubt, but we ain't got nothing like this. &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="arial" LANG="0">
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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