[Groop]OT-Nigeria (sorry)/don't feel like the Lone Ranger...
Gary Grossmann
grossfam@olywa.net
Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:54:17 -0800
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Azamin, my friend! (and onyone else who wants to read it)=20
Part of the problem, as far as understanding goes, is that the media in =
the USA primarily covers the extreme views because the so-called =
journalists will tell you that's what makes the best story. =20
So, for example, some extreme liberals will tell you that a woman who is =
forced to cover herself from head to toe is oppressed, as is a woman who =
is forced to stay home and raise kids. These people are shocked and =
angry to find out that some women want to cover themselves from head to =
toe and some women want to stay home and raise children. Their response =
is typically that such women have either been brianwashed or have =
"copped out." =20
Conversely, some extreme conservatives will tell you that a woman's =
place is in the home, period, the (Fill in the blank Holy book) says so =
and the root cause of most of the problems with society is women doing =
things other than having babies and obeying their husbands. These =
people are shocked and angry to find out that some women don't want to =
stay home and raise children. Their response is typically that such =
women have been brainwashed by some vile outside influence. =20
But even if those conflicting views are all that the outside world =
hears, an overwhelming majority of Americans think both are wrong. Most =
Americans think a woman should be able to dress the way she wants and =
pursue whatever life/career goals she has in the same way a man does. =
That doesn't mean that everyone won't have an opinion-and voice that =
opinion. During the same day the same woman might be criticized for =
dressing too provactively, not dressing "sharp" enough, not paying =
enough attention to her family, paying too much attention to her family, =
and trying to "have it all." And she is left to sort all this out and =
make the decisions and choose what is best for her. (At least that's =
the theory.) =20
However, in SOME Moslem countries (I know Malaysia is not one of these) =
the women have no choices. None. Zero Zip. Nada. That's what bothers =
most Americans. Sure maybe 90% want to be covered from head to toe, but =
what about the 10% that don't? Here we have Christian denominations =
that basically demand that a woman just have babies and obey her =
husband. And because of finances and education issues it might be very, =
very hard for a woman to get herself out of that situation if she wanted =
to. But the point is that she could try without the morals police =
tracking her down and dragging her back to her husband. Simlarly, she =
might be socially ostracized for cheating on her husband and some =
churches would even kick her out. But the police wouldn't come grab her =
and throw her in jail to await execution. =20
That's the problem with any theocracy. You have no free exchange of =
ideas. Most Americans can't get past that. One tiny group imposes their =
theology, their moral beliefs, on everyone. It just so happens that the =
only real theocracies in the world today (at least that I'm aware of) =
are Moslem theocracies. But it would be the same no matter what =
religion it was. 400 years ago Salem Massachusetts was a little =
theocracy and they hung people as witches. Imagine if Deuteronomy was =
the law of the land in Israel or Pat Robertson was president or dictator =
of the USA. What if the Scientologists took over and John Travolta was =
president! (A truly frightening thought!) =20
But....every country and every people have got to work on these things =
for themselves, whether they live under a repressive theocracy, a brutal =
dictatorship, or some thing else. We've been working on how we do =
things for over 200 years and we've still got a lot of kinks to hammer =
out.=20
So there's my two cents worth. While I was writing this the dog hate =
my hamburger. =20
Take care (and keep an eye on your hamburgers) -Gary G. =20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bodhikt@aol.com=20
To: groop@groo.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Groop]OT-Nigeria (sorry)/don't feel like the Lone =
Ranger...
In a message dated 11/26/2002 2:51:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, =
azamin7@pd.jaring.my writes:
1. Why when a nun covered her body frrom head to toe, she is being
respected for her submission to God but when a muslim woman do the =
same, she was
branded as being oppressed...?
I've heard more "nun jokes" in the last 50 years, than criticism of =
Middle-Eastern dress codes. Nuns may be "respected for (their) =
submission to God", but they are STILL being ridiculed for the "uniform" =
they once wore (the only nuns I know wearing "traditional" clothing are =
Buddhist; the only Catholic nuns I've met in the last couple of decades, =
wear modern Western clothing-- "business attire".)
2. Why when a western woman stay at home to look after the =
children, she
was regarded as sacrificed for her family but when a muslim woman do =
the same
thing, she need to be libertised....?
About the only praise coming the way of Western "stay at home moms" is =
from rather ummm.... conservative.... elements of Western society. Those =
who call for the "liberalization" of Moslem women tend to criticize, and =
treat as if they are a bit retarded, those who choose, for whatever =
reason, to stay home with the kids. Been there, done that. Still doing =
that mostly. Stay at home dads get even more criticism -- and from all =
sides....=20
Kaytee
http://www.eclecticbeadery.com/simplexities.html
http://www.rubylane.com/shops/simplexities=20
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Azamin, my friend! (and onyone else who wants =
to read=20
it) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Part of the problem, as far as understanding goes, =
is that the=20
media in the USA primarily covers the extreme views because the =
so-called=20
journalists will tell you that's what makes the best story. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So, for example, some extreme liberals will tell you =
that a=20
woman who is forced to cover herself from head to toe is oppressed, as =
is a=20
woman who is forced to stay home and raise kids. These people are =
shocked=20
and angry to find out that some women want to cover themselves from head =
to toe=20
and some women want to stay home and raise children. Their =
response is=20
typically that such women have either been brianwashed or have "copped=20
out." </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Conversely, some extreme conservatives will tell you =
that a=20
woman's place is in the home, period, the (Fill in the blank Holy book) =
says so=20
and the root cause of most of the problems with society is women doing =
things=20
other than having babies and obeying their husbands. These people =
are=20
shocked and angry to find out that some women don't want to stay =
home and=20
raise children. Their response is typically that such women have =
been=20
brainwashed by some vile outside influence. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>But even if those conflicting views are all that the =
outside=20
world hears, an overwhelming majority of Americans think both are =
wrong. =20
Most Americans think a woman should be able to dress the way she wants =
and=20
pursue whatever life/career goals she has in the same way a man =
does. =20
That doesn't mean that everyone won't have an opinion-and voice =
that=20
opinion. During the same day the same woman might be =
criticized for=20
dressing too provactively, not dressing "sharp" enough, not paying =
enough=20
attention to her family, paying too much attention to her =
family, and=20
trying to "have it all." And she is left to sort all this out and =
make the=20
decisions and choose what is best for her. (At least that's =
the=20
theory.) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>However, in SOME Moslem countries (I know =
Malaysia=20
is not one of these) the women have no choices. None. Zero Zip.=20
Nada. That's what bothers most Americans. Sure maybe 90% =
want to be=20
covered from head to toe, but what about the 10% that =
don't? Here we=20
have Christian denominations that basically demand that a woman just =
have babies=20
and obey her husband. And because of finances and education issues =
it=20
might be very, very hard for a woman to get herself out of that =
situation if she=20
wanted to. But the point is that she could try without the morals =
police=20
tracking her down and dragging her back to her husband. Simlarly, =
she=20
might be socially ostracized for cheating on her husband and some =
churches would=20
even kick her out. But the police wouldn't come grab her and throw =
her in=20
jail to await execution. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>That's the problem with any theocracy. You =
have no free=20
exchange of ideas. Most Americans can't get past that. One =
tiny group=20
imposes their theology, their moral beliefs, on everyone. It =
just so=20
happens that the only real theocracies in the world today (at least that =
I'm=20
aware of) are Moslem theocracies. But it would be the same no =
matter=20
what religion it was. 400 years ago Salem Massachusetts was a =
little=20
theocracy and they hung people as witches. Imagine if Deuteronomy =
was the=20
law of the land in Israel or Pat Robertson was president or =
dictator of the=20
USA. What if the Scientologists took over and John Travolta was=20
president! (A truly frightening thought!) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>But....every country and every people have got to =
work on=20
these things for themselves, whether they live under a repressive =
theocracy, a=20
brutal dictatorship, or some thing else. We've been working =
on how we=20
do things for over 200 years and we've still got a lot of kinks to =
hammer=20
out. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So there's my two cents =
worth. </FONT> <FONT=20
size=3D2>While I was writing this the dog hate my hamburger. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Take care (and keep an eye on your hamburgers) =
-Gary=20
G. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DBodhikt@aol.com =
href=3D"mailto:Bodhikt@aol.com">Bodhikt@aol.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dgroop@groo.com=20
href=3D"mailto:groop@groo.com">groop@groo.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 26, =
2002 5:24=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Groop]OT-Nigeria=20
(sorry)/don't feel like the Lone Ranger...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 =
face=3D"Comic Sans MS"=20
size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT">In a message dated 11/26/2002 2:51:35 PM =
Pacific=20
Standard Time, <A =
href=3D"mailto:azamin7@pd.jaring.my">azamin7@pd.jaring.my</A>=20
writes:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
TYPE=3D"CITE"></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff" face=3DArial=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">1. Why when a =
nun covered her=20
body frrom head to toe, she is being<BR>respected for her submission =
to God=20
but when a muslim woman do the same, she was<BR>branded as being=20
oppressed...?</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR>I've heard more "nun jokes" in the last 50 =
years, than=20
criticism of Middle-Eastern dress codes. Nuns may be "respected for =
(their)=20
submission to God", but they are STILL being ridiculed for the =
"uniform" they=20
once wore (the only nuns I know wearing "traditional" clothing are =
Buddhist;=20
the only Catholic nuns I've met in the last couple of decades, wear =
modern=20
Western clothing-- "business attire".)<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
TYPE=3D"CITE"></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff" face=3DArial=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">2. Why when a =
western woman=20
stay at home to look after the children, she<BR>was regarded as =
sacrificed=20
for her family but when a muslim woman do the same<BR>thing, she =
need to be=20
libertised....?</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT"><BR>About the only praise coming the way of Western =
"stay at=20
home moms" is from rather ummm.... conservative.... elements of =
Western=20
society. Those who call for the "liberalization" of Moslem women tend =
to=20
criticize, and treat as if they are a bit retarded, those who choose, =
for=20
whatever reason, to stay home with the kids. Been there, done that. =
Still=20
doing that mostly. Stay at home dads get even more criticism -- and =
from all=20
sides....=20
=
<BR>Kaytee<BR>http://www.eclecticbeadery.com/simplexities.html</FONT><FON=
T=20
lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.rubylane.com/shops/simplexities">http://www.rubylane.c=
om/shops/simplexities</A>=20
<BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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